It all started with a Guest commentary by Kevin Kane in The Advocate: "Correctional system, sentencing reform a nonpartisan issue" on 07 (?) May 2015 ...
But then, Ms. Elaine O. Coyle and I got into it as follows:
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Thomas Winn wrote "... if incarcerated, it isn't the first time nor is it a misdemeanor (smoking drugs)." Incorrect.
"Louisiana has some of the harshest marijuana laws in the country. First-offense possession of even a single joint is punishable by up to six months in jail." -- www.mpp.org/states/
Mr. Winn also wrote "... if we made prison MORE discomforting for the inmates ..." Lawsuits have shown Louisiana prisons are among the "most discomforting" in the nation - unconstitutional treatment of those incarcerated. Mr. Winn supports punishment/revenge versus rehabilitation.
"The Louisiana Department of Corrections (DOC) is responsible for the custody and care of adult offenders across Louisiana. Just over half of Louisiana’s approximately 39,000 inmates are assigned to the state’s twelve correctional facilities. The remaining offenders are assigned to parish facilities and work release centers. DOC’s Probation and Parole division supervises an additional 70,000 offenders." -- doc.louisiana.gov
Louisiana stands alone in the U.S. by housing state prisoners in parish jails [just under half of 39,000 of adult offenders]. "There's a lack of programming, a lack of medical, mental health care, a lack of education, a lack of vocational training, lack, lack, lack," [Burk Foster, a former criminal justice professor at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette] said. "The sheriffs provide more or less secure care of prisoners. They don't provide much beyond that." -- nola.com
Elaine O. Coyle wrote "IMO, it is insane to let criminals know that they won't face jail time."
So, "jail time" is the ONLY option? No mental health treatment, no job training, no work release, no supervised probation, no community service, no house arrest?
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"Louisiana has some of the harshest marijuana laws in the country. First-offense possession of even a single joint is punishable by up to six months in jail." -- www.mpp.org/states/
Mr. Winn also wrote "... if we made prison MORE discomforting for the inmates ..." Lawsuits have shown Louisiana prisons are among the "most discomforting" in the nation - unconstitutional treatment of those incarcerated. Mr. Winn supports punishment/revenge versus rehabilitation.
"The Louisiana Department of Corrections (DOC) is responsible for the custody and care of adult offenders across Louisiana. Just over half of Louisiana’s approximately 39,000 inmates are assigned to the state’s twelve correctional facilities. The remaining offenders are assigned to parish facilities and work release centers. DOC’s Probation and Parole division supervises an additional 70,000 offenders." -- doc.louisiana.gov
Louisiana stands alone in the U.S. by housing state prisoners in parish jails [just under half of 39,000 of adult offenders]. "There's a lack of programming, a lack of medical, mental health care, a lack of education, a lack of vocational training, lack, lack, lack," [Burk Foster, a former criminal justice professor at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette] said. "The sheriffs provide more or less secure care of prisoners. They don't provide much beyond that." -- nola.com
Elaine O. Coyle wrote "IMO, it is insane to let criminals know that they won't face jail time."
So, "jail time" is the ONLY option? No mental health treatment, no job training, no work release, no supervised probation, no community service, no house arrest?
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Elaine O. Coyle · Top Commenter · Cornell University
Some of those options are already in service.
With me , the nature of the crime should determine the sentence.
I am more concerned about the victim than the attacker.
The woman who followed me into the driveway of my daughter's house & grabbed my
purse, then ran to a waiting car was skilled . She had done it before
& she had a partner. She got the contents of my purse including cell
phone, credit cards & gold earrings that weren't even mine.She was able
to charge 3 tanks of gas in one night.I had insurance but with the deductible
I was still on the hook for a big loss plus I lost the prettiest purse I ever had.
Sooner or later she will be caught & I want her IN JAIL. She is a seasoned
criminal.
See if you can sell that hearts & flowers crap to other victims.
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Elaine O. Coyle: I am sorry you were a crime victim. However, you represent one crime victim of one crime. That does not justify treating all criminals as though they all personally victimized you.
The opinion piece stated "Prison is unquestionably the place for violent, repeat and other serious offenders, [the sort that made you a victim] and the expense of keeping them there will always be justified. But Louisiana has cast its incarceration net too far, and the costs are draining money away from other important public needs."
"Other important public needs" can include increased police protection and investigation of crimes in order to render justice OR training programs to equip people with jobs skills so they do not resort to crime.
Elaine O. Coyle · Top Commenter · Cornell University
This isn't Les Miserables, where people steal because they are hungry.
There are people out there who steal because if is easier than
working.I have known plenty of people who have had no job skills &
they didn't resort to crime. Poverty is no excuse for breaking the law.
If you commit the crime, you do the time. It's very simple.
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Elaine O. Coyle: You mentioned "Les Miserables"; I didn't. Who said "people steal because they are hungry"? You did. Any particular reasons? "Poverty is no excuse for breaking the law." Who said it was? OR do you choose to ignore my points rather than address them?
Oh, in "Les Miserables," Jean Valjean was based on a historical person Pierre Maurin who spent five years in prison for stealing bread for his sister’s children.
Returning to present day ... "If you commit the crime, you do the time." Why are we in Louisiana so harsh that we incarcerate more of our citizens than any other state yet still suffer from the "high crime rates" most commenters complain about? Could it be those longer sentences are not the deterrents everyone "knows" they are? Most certainly, those committing the crimes apparently don't know it.
From earlier ... "Some of those options are already in service." Then, why did you write "it is insane to let criminals know that they won't face jail time." It appears you mean all criminals should face jail time in all cases or did you mean to exempt some criminals from mandatory jail time?
"I am more concerned about the victim than the attacker." So ... who does the marijuana smoker attack or the non-violent offender?
In Louisiana ...
Possession of Marijuana (less than 60 lbs)
first offense . . . . . .6 mos . . $ 500
second offense . . . 5 years . $2,500
subsequent offense . 20 years . $5,000
Cultivation of Marijuana (any amount) [no exemption for medical marijuana]
first offense . . . . . . . 5* - 30 years . $ 50,000
subsequent offense. . 10* - 60 years . $100,000
* Mandatory minimum sentence
Elaine O. Coyle · Top Commenter · Cornell University
James,
Oh please, obtuse should be your middle name.
Your points are always distortions of what I say.
1.I know the story of Les Miserables or I would not have mentioned
it. I assumed that most people do.
2.Do you know anyone in LA who has been in prison for 5 years
for stealing a loaf of bread?
3.FYI, our poverty level is higher than many countries regular
standard of living. Look up how most Chinese live.
4.Poverty is a cop out for thievery. During the Depression or
the Dust Bowl, their was poverty & few supports & people
didn't steal. at least not on the level that people do today.
5.There seems to be an attitude that other peoples' property
is up for grabs like the Baltimore Mayor who told the Police
to stand down & "Let them loot, it's only property."... See More
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Ms. Coyle ...
1. I know the story of Les Miserables or I would not have mentioned it. I assumed that most people do.
Considering the assumption of most commenting at The Advocate that most Louisiana schools are inadequate, that may not be a valid assumption.
2. Do you know anyone in LA who has been in prison for 5 years for stealing a loaf of bread?
For stealing bread, no. For doing nothing wrong, yes. And for quite a few years beyond five up to and including death.
3. FYI, our poverty level is higher than many countries regular standard of living. Look up how most Chinese live.
On the other hand, among developed countries, the U.S. stands alone in not making healthcare available to all its citizens.
4. ... During the Depression or the Dust Bowl, their (sic) was poverty & few supports & people didn't steal. ...
My grandmother lived in fear her husband would die at the hands of Bonnie & Clyde as he had to make the night deposit for his company. The gang committed hundreds of robberies and killed perhaps nine police officers and several civilians. Reportedly, "Barrow's goal in life was not to gain fame or fortune from robbing banks, but to seek revenge against the Texas prison system for the abuses he suffered while serving time." Louisiana's penal system may be producing similar results.
5. ... the Baltimore Mayor who told the Police to stand down & "Let them loot, it's only property."
The Mayor was correct. It is not lawful to use deadly force to protect property. Lives are worth more than stuff.
6. Our high crime rates come from people who have grown up to have no respect for others & their property. ... "It's their own damn fault."
FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO JUVENILE DELINQUENCY, K. M. BANHAM BRIDGES, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Volume 17, Issue 4 (1927)
I. Physical Factors.
1. Malnutrition.
2. Lack of sleep.
3. Developmental aberrations.
4. Sensory defects.
5. Speech defects.
6. Endocrine disorders.
7. Deformities.
8. Nervous diseases.
9. Other ailments.
10. Physical exuberance.
11. Drug addiction.
12. Effect of weather.
II. Mental Factors.
1. Mental defect.
2. Superior intelligence.
3. Psychoses.
4. Psychoneuroses.
5. Psychopathic constitution (including emotional instability).
6. Abnormalities of instinct and emotion.
7. Uneven mental development.
8. Obsessive imagery and imagination.
9. Mental conflicts.
10. Repression and substitution.
11. Inferiority complex.
12. Introversion and egocentrism.
13. Revengefulness (get-even complex).
14. Suggestibility.
15. Contra-suggestibility.
16. Lethargy and laziness.
17. Adolescent emotional instability.
18. Sex habits and experiences.
19. Habit and association.
II. Home Conditions.
1. Unsanitary conditions.
2. Material deficiencies.
3. Excess in material things.
4. Poverty and unemployment.
5. Broken homes.
6. Mental and physical abnormalities of parents, or siblings.
7. Immoral and delinquent parents.
8. Ill-treatment by foster parents, step-parents, or guardians.
9. Stigma of illegitimacy.
10. Lack of parental care and affection.
11. Lack of confidence and frankness between parents and children.
12. Deficient and misdirected discipline.
13. Unhappy relationship with siblings.
14. Bad example.
15. Foreign birth or parentage.
16. "Superior" education of children.
IV. School Conditions.
1. Inadequate school building and equipment.
2. Inadequate facilities for recreation.
3. Rigid and inelastic school system, "the goose-step."
4. Poor attendance laws and lax enforcement.
5. Wrong grading.
6. Unsatisfactory teacher.
7. Undesirable attitude of pupil towards teacher.
8. Bad school companions and codes of morals.
V. Neighborhood Conditions.
1. Lack of recreational facilities.
2. Congested neighborhood and slums.
3. Disreputable morals of the district.
4. Proximity of luxury and wealth.
5. Influence of gangs and gang codes.
6. Loneliness, lack of social outlets.
7. Overstimulating movies and Shows.
VI. Occupational Conditions.
1. Irregular occupation.
2. Occupational misfit.
3. Spare time and idleness.
4. Truancy.
5. Factory influences.
6. Monotony and restraint.
7. Decline in the apprenticeship system.
Of the above items, which are "their own damn fault"?
7. ... jail time for repeat offenders. ...
The opinion piece is not about repeat offenders.
8. ... People are incarcerated to protect the public. ...
People are incarcerated in Louisiana due to mandatory sentencing requirements enacted by politicians trying to appear to be "tough on crime."
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Elaine O. Coyle · Top Commenter · Cornell University
LOL!
What B.S,! What tripe!
You could teach a course titled, EXCUSES FOR CRIMINALS 101.
Lesson learned, I shall not waste my time answering you in the future
as you are in some unreal world of your own.
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Ms. Coyle, whence came your aversion to facts?
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Debtors' Prisons in the U.S.
"In the landmark 1983 case, Bearden v. Georgia, the United States Supreme Court ruled that a man’s Constitutional rights were violated when he was imprisoned for his inability to pay his court-ordered fines and fees. The Court held that before sentencing someone to jail time for failure to pay, a sentencing court must investigate the person’s ability to pay; to imprison someone merely because of poverty would be fundamentally unfair."
Decades pass ...
"In Louisiana, a homeless construction worker was assessed $498 in fines and costs when he was convicted of possession of marijuana in 2007. He was arrested two years later after failing to pay his legal debt and spent five months in jail at a cost of more than $3,000 to the City of New Orleans.
"In one two-week period in May, 2014, 16 men in New Orleans were sentenced to serve jail time when they could not pay their legal financial obligations (LFOs). If they served their complete sentences, their incarceration would cost the City of New Orleans over $1,000 more than their total unpaid legal debts. ...
"... the practice of jailing people for their inability to pay fines increases recidivism among former inmates, who often have a difficult time obtaining employment. Up to 60 percent of former inmates are unemployed one year after release. Unable to secure a job, but facing a backlog of court-ordered fines, former inmates are likely to end up back in jail simply because they are poor."
-- louisianaweekly.com
How is any of this "their own damn fault"? I know, the homeless construction worker possessed marijuana. But, did that marijuana cost more than a loaf of bread? The article didn't state if he bought it or not.
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Elaine O. Coyle · Top Commenter · Cornell University
Facts ....LOL
When you say that the Mayor of Baltimore was right for allowing thugs to burn buildings &
loot, that is abominable & an OPINION, not a fact.
In the first place the police did not have live ammunition so there was little danger of death
while there was danger of death when the rioters were throwing bricks & rocks at the police
& molotov cocktails.
I didn't even read your last comment because as far as I am concerned we are not even close to agreeing on anything.
James R. Madden · Top Commenter · Consultant at Considering Retirement
Coyle: "When you say Mayor of Baltimore was right for
allowing thugs to burn buildings & loot, that is abominable
& an OPINION, not a fact."Your Opinion then is that property is more valuable than human beings.
Please, provide the approximate dollar amount you suggest at which
the taking of a human life is authorized?
When you search for the phrase(s) "Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake
ordered police to (1) stand down, (2) allow rioters to loot, (3) give
space to rioters & let them loot," it is preceded by one of the
following words: allegedly, reportedly, the speculation that, apparently.
The phrase is repeated on multiple sites such as inforwars.com, theeconomiccollapseblog.com, thefreethoughtproject.com,rushlimbaugh.com, newsbusters.org, insider.foxnews.com, conservativefiringline.com, nypost.com,doomsteaddiner.net, knightstemplarinternational.com, ... You are against something, IN MY OPINION, of course, the Mayor of
Baltimore never said.
Regarding 'molotov cocktail' -- "Fire beside Pratt library was not caused
by Molotov cocktail." -- huffingtonpost.com, breitbart.com,theguardian.com,
latimes.com
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